Game Set 21st May 2017 - 25th June 2017

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Lewis
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Re: Game Set 21st May 2017 - 25th June 2017

Postby Lewis » Sun May 07, 2017 6:20 pm

Colin - which skill is used to find traps - is it Perception?

Also, you should have a look at the starter set Rogue character's fluff (bond, flaw, etc). It all sounds very plot relevant, so I'll probably use that, even if I build the character's ability scores etc from scratch.

Playing: Telford: Dark Heresy.
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Re: Game Set 21st May 2017 - 25th June 2017

Postby ColinBuckler » Sun May 07, 2017 11:00 pm

Lewis wrote:Colin - which skill is used to find traps - is it Perception?

Also, you should have a look at the starter set Rogue character's fluff (bond, flaw, etc). It all sounds very plot relevant, so I'll probably use that, even if I build the character's ability scores etc from scratch.
Lewis wrote:Colin - which skill is used to find traps - is it Perception?


Good overview from reddit:

When the party approaches a trap the first thing you do is check their Passive Perception against a DC that identifies whether they notice the trap or something off about the trap at a glance. This can be quickly done against every party members passive perception (something you can keep on hand as the DM) without having them roll anything and keeps the description of the room going.

If so you provide the clue and let them go from there.

If they don't notice it on Passive and a character steps toward to or on the trigger, you have them roll Active Perception check against noticing the trap before they trigger it.

If they trigger the trap you give them the Save DC and figure out the narrative whether they avoid it or not.

If the party decides to follow a clue (from description or passive perception) and look for traps, you use an Investigation (Int) check for them to follow the clues to identify the traps purpose or trigger.

If they want to glance around the room and look for traps without thoroughly searching, that is a Perception check. It doesn't take as long but is often more difficult to identify a trap at a glance. This is the same DC as the Passive Perception.

Also:
Also all classes can try to Disarm Traps - the skill is based on the Thieves Tools not on the class any more - though Rogues can get double proficiency quite easily. i.e. gain the skill proficiency twice. At 1st level (+2 Proficiency, DEX 17 +3) you could have +2+2+3 = +7

Hope that helps.
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Re: Game Set 21st May 2017 - 25th June 2017

Postby Lewis » Mon May 08, 2017 10:00 am

Yes, that clears things up. However, it does mean that to be the trap-monkey, I'll need proficiency (or even double proficiency where possible) in three things: Perception, Investigation, and Thieves' Tools. And that means three good ability scores, WIS, INT, and DEX. Which sounds hard, and makes it impossible to have a decent CON score as well. Hmmm.

I think that's strongly pushing me towards Elf rather than Halfling.

I assume it would be okay to totally cannibalise the rogue character from the starter set? What I mean is keep all the nice, plot-related fluff, background, and motivations, but to change the name, race, ability scores, etc? Basically, keep everything that seems to relate to the plot and setting, file off the serial numbers, and rebuild from the chassis up?

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Re: Game Set 21st May 2017 - 25th June 2017

Postby ColinBuckler » Mon May 08, 2017 11:38 am

A game flow would be:

A room with a Trapdoor.

You walk in the room - as I am reading the description I will check your Passive Perception as you may automatically see something not quite right with the floor. If they do it will lead them to an Active Investigation on the Trapdoor.

Searching the room will be an Active Perception check. You may find the something funny about the floor leading to an Active Investigation on the floor to identify what.

Declaring checking the floor for traps would be an Active Investigation roll on the floor.

This can be attributed to 3.5 in the way that Spot (CHA) being a Perception (CHA) roll and a Search (INT) being an Investigation (INT) roll.

5E Perception.
Your Wisdom (Perception) check lets you spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something. It measures your general awareness of your surroundings and the keenness of your senses. For example, you might try to hear a conversation through a closed door, eavesdrop under an open window, or hear monsters moving stealthily in the forest. Or you might try to spot things that are obscured or easy to miss, whether they are orcs lying in ambush on a road, thugs hiding in the shadows of an alley, or candlelight under a closed secret door.

5E Investigation
When you look around for clues and make deductions based on those clues, you make an Intelligence (Investigation) check. You might deduce the location of a hidden object, discern from the appearance of a wound what kind of weapon dealt it, or determine the weakest point in a tunnel that could cause it to collapse. Poring through ancient scrolls in search of a hidden fragment of knowledge might also call for an Intelligence (Investigation) check.

Summary: So Perception is awareness of your surroundings and Investigation is a search.

I can see these being mixed up an aweful lot.

----------

Another good example from reddit is:

Active skill checks (rolls) only occur when a character does something. Passive is that characters DC.

* Passive perception is noticing a tripwire while walking through a hallway.
* Active perception is pressing your ear to a door to hear whats on the other side.

* Passive investigation is realizing that an aristrocrats shoes being muddy is important.
* Active investigation is searching a chest for a trap.

Active perception and passive investigation should be rare checks.

The difference is perception is about what you notice with your senses and gut, investigation is what you determine from logic and deductive reasoning.

----------

Take the Elf race with "Keen Senses. You have proficiency in the Perception skill.".
This would allow an Elf by just walking past a secret door and maybe sense there is sonething wrong with that area of the wall not looking right (Passive Perception). But then an Active Investigation check to identify whats wrong with that section of the wall and find the secret door.
Colin Buckler
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But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be.
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Re: Game Set 21st May 2017 - 25th June 2017

Postby Lewis » Mon May 08, 2017 1:53 pm

Yeah, that's what I thought. I'm thinking of High Elf Rogue with the Criminal background, cannibalising the rogue backstory from the starter set. This has the following info:

The town of Phandalin is built on the ruins of an older settlement, vacant for ve centuries until some hardy settlers set about rebuilding it some years back. Drawn by stories of gold and platinum in the nearby foothills, you came to Phandalin as well, not to earn a living, but to prey on those who struck it rich. You joined a gang calling itself the Redbrands and made some decent coin as a burglar, enforcer, or fence.

But you must have made an enemy among your fellow Redbrands. Someone set you up. On that person’s word, the head of the Redbrands—a wizard called Glassta —tried to have you killed. You escaped, barely alive and thanking Tymora, the goddess of good fortune, for your luck. You fled Phandalin, almost penniless and with only the tools of your trade to your name.

Personal Goal: Get Your Revenge. Someone in the Redbrands nearly got you killed, and you sure would like to know who it was. And then you’d like to take your revenge—on that person, on Glassta , maybe on all the Redbrands. And you just got a tip that might help you: someone named Halia Thornton also has it out for the Redbrands. She lives in Phandalin, which means showing your face to the Redbrands who still want you dead.



From the combo of race, class and background, I'd end up with some stuff that I would not make use of;

A) Proficiency in Thieves' Tools twice.
B) an extra crowbar
C) a hooded lantern
D) Candles

The 5e rulebook suggests that if you get the same proficiency twice, you can swop the second time for a different proficiency of the same type. So, can I swop the second proficiency in Thieves Tools for one in Disguise kit? Can I then also sell or trade the extra equipment I can't use, add that to my cash (15GP) and have a Disguise Kit instead, as my character will need to disguise him/her self in order to reach Halia without getting stabbed?

How does that sound?

Playing: Telford: Dark Heresy.
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Re: Game Set 21st May 2017 - 25th June 2017

Postby ColinBuckler » Mon May 08, 2017 2:09 pm

Hi Lewis,

Yes - you can swop the duplicate occurance of the proficiency for a "suitable" replacement and I think Disguise is a suitable replacement. Simply swop Thieves Tools for Disguise Kit.

The doubling up of the proficiency bonus comes from the Rogues Expertise (gained at 1st level).
Colin Buckler
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Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies
But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be.
Rush - Losing It

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Lewis
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Re: Game Set 21st May 2017 - 25th June 2017

Postby Lewis » Mon May 08, 2017 3:21 pm

Great, I'm about as set as I can be, given that I haven't got access to most things at the moment.

High Elf, Rogue, Criminal (burglar). CN.

Ability scores are 8, 16, 14, 14, 12, 12 with High Elf racial bonus (probably specify Moon Elf for the Realms).

Languages: Common, Elven, Thieves Cant, and one other tbc.

Darkvision 60'.

Cantrip: Mage Hand (duh).

Proficiencies: Thieves Tools (expertise), Disguise Kit, Stealth (expertise), Perception, Deception, Acrobatics, Investigation, Persuasion, and one other tbc.

Now, the PHB suggests that if you get the same Proficiency from any combination of race, class, background, you can instead replace it with a different Proficiency including non-class ones, if I've read it correctly. I get Perception from both race and class, and Stealth and Deception from both class and background. Now, does that mean I could use one of my Proficiency 'slots' to get 'Arcana' so that I could find and deal with magical traps?

If my PC has Arcana, I'll probably go for Draconic as that last language, as that sort of ties together. Otherwise, I dunno yet. Can't think what makes sense for the character. I assume (as they're not mentioned in the PHB) that 5e does NOT have all the separate human languages that are in The Realms setting in 3e? (Chondathan, Damarran, Illuskan, etc).

Playing: Telford: Dark Heresy.
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Re: Game Set 21st May 2017 - 25th June 2017

Postby ColinBuckler » Mon May 08, 2017 4:16 pm

With Mage Hand you can manipulate objects but not sufficiently to pick locks/disable traps.

However - all classes have sub classes (Archetype) they must select one from (this is not available in the starter rules).

For Rogues they get to choose from:
- Arcane Trickster
- Assassin
- Thief

Arcane Trickster grants you spell casting from the Arcane School and you get mage hand + 2 others cantrips of your choice. You also get 3 x 1st level spells, 2 must be from illusion/enchantment - they other from any schools. Additional spell/slots are gained at every level.

However at 3rd level you also get:

MACE HAND LEGERDEMAIN
Starting at 3rd levei, when you cast mage hand, you can make the spectral hand invisible. and you can perform the following additionaltasks with it:

- You can stow one objectthe hand is holding in a container worn ar carried by another creature.
- You can retrieve an object in a container worn or carried by another creature.
- You can use thieves' tools to pick locks and disarm traps at range.

If you want to go down this route, I would suggest you should look at Fire Bolt as your Elf Cantrip:

FIRE BOLT
Evocation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Ran*e: 120 feet
Components: V, 5
Duration: Instantaneous
You hurl a mote of fire at a creature or object within range. Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, the target takes 1d10 fire damage. A flammable object hit by this spell ignites if it isn't being worn or earried.
This spell's damage increases by 1d10 when you reach
5th level (2d10), 11th level (3d10), and 17th level (4d10).

NOTE: You only get Sneak Attack damage once per turn and this must be with a Finesse/Ranged weapon (as well as other criteria). Not with a spell.

Oh and dont forget the Fire Bolt can crit for double damage. You can also keep pumping the cantrip out all day long !!
Colin Buckler
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Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies
But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be.
Rush - Losing It

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Lewis
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Re: Game Set 21st May 2017 - 25th June 2017

Postby Lewis » Mon May 08, 2017 4:23 pm

Not sure if I'd go Arcane Trickster or not. But if I was, maybe Draconic makes even more sense as that final language. What about my question about Arcana as a replacement Proficiency?

Playing: Telford: Dark Heresy.
Running: Cannock: Legends of Corwyn/D&D, Telford: Forgotten Realms: Heroes of Faerûn/D&D.
Prepping: Chill (modern day horror) Tales From The Loop (1980s sci-fi/horror)

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ColinBuckler
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Re: Game Set 21st May 2017 - 25th June 2017

Postby ColinBuckler » Mon May 08, 2017 4:28 pm

For an Elf, Arcana seems reasonable.
Colin Buckler
Committee Member

Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies
But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be.
Rush - Losing It


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